Budgeting with Conviction

Drew: Hello, Renegade Marketers! If this is your first time, welcome, and if you're a regular listener, welcome back. Welcome to CMO Huddles Quick Takes, our Tuesday Spotlight series where we share insights you can use right away. In this episode, we're joined by Forrester analyst Craig Moore to share insights into what CMOs get wrong when it comes to budgeting, what to do about it, and how to prepare budgets for 2026. All right, let's get into it.

Narrator: Welcome to Renegade Marketers Unite, possibly the best weekly podcast for CMOs and everyone else looking for innovative ways to transform their brand, drive demand, and just plain cut through, proving that B2B does not mean boring to business. Here's your host and Chief Marketing Renegade, Drew Neisser.

Drew: Hello Huddlers, today we're diving headfirst into the budgeting pressure cooker with Craig Moore, VP and Principal Analyst at Forrester. We know you all are being asked to hit aggressive growth targets with fewer people, tighter timelines, and in many cases, flat or shrinking budgets. I'm assuming this sounds familiar? Well, Craig has some fresh thinking on how to make all this work, and we're going to unpack it over the next 50 minutes. For those of you in the audience right now, live with us, if you have questions, feel free to put them in chat or jump on camera by raising your hand. Okay, so Craig, one of the things we like to do in these is just in case the audience needs to leave early, or we need to convince them to stay. What are three things you think CMOs are getting wrong when it comes to budgeting? If you can just list them, then we can unpack them together.

Craig: So number one is they create their budget architecture to look a lot like their organization chart. So it's a budget that gets allocated to maybe the marketing leadership team members, and they're each specialist in a discipline of marketing of some sort. And then the budget goes to them, and then they build their own plans, and that begins the big marketing silos. Okay? Next thing I'd say is they don't align their marketing plan to business objectives. Essentially, they're revamping the old calendar, lots of events usually, and a lot of focus on product launch. And then the third thing is that a lot of times marketing plans and marketing budgets, consequently, are developed around product orientation versus audience orientation, and the budget and the way you map your market segments are very related to each other. If you really build your budgets around your product orientation, you begin to lose sight of the full customer lifecycle, and it makes it very hard to have a full lifecycle marketing relationship with your customers when you do it that way.

Drew: I love it, all right. Well, those are really meaty. Let's go through them one at a time. The budget should not equal the org chart talk. Let's go into that deeply and why that first, what that looks like, and then why it's so problematic.

Craig: Well, think about a really well-defined strategic go-to-market plan, what we call campaigns. So we think of campaigns as these long-running activities that are focused on market segments and buyer needs. And if you want to build a campaign, and you've got the money in marketing allocated to the different disciplines of marketing, like field marketing here and PR and events and all the different tactical things that you can execute from a marketing perspective, then when you want to really build a campaign that combines a whole set of these tactics or programs across the market segment over time, the money is allocated somewhere else, and so you end up with your campaign leaders, which are really running the strategic initiative that's there to try to drive revenue and retention around your market segments. They don't have the money. They have to go beg for resources across the owners of the disciplines. But the problem is that most marketing leaders, they hire these experts in different disciplines of marketing, and they feel obligated to give them some power and control in the organization. They give them budget, and they do what they're experts at, which is to go off and build essentially their own marketing plans that are really around the disciplines of which they're expert. And so that creates this kind of tough situation where it's almost impossible to measure the ROI of marketing, and it immediately puts marketing on its back foot, you know, when it comes to having a strategic conversation with your counterparts in sales, product, CEO, finance.

Drew: Interesting, so, and I'm so but breaking this down a bit, I've got a head of brand, I've got a head of demand gen, I've got a head of field marketing. And basically this problem begins when you say, okay, brand, you got X number of dollars, field you got this. And so there's no coordination, there's no campaigns. These are, in effect, they're already kind of shooting themselves in the foot, budget segmentation, right? And so the alternative of that is a campaign approach. We have this target with these objectives. We need multiple touches, multiple ways of going after that. We know it's going to involve field. We know it's going to involve some kind of brand overlay. We know it's going to find some kind of demand generation effort. So I wonder, though, is part of the problem just the org design?

Craig: Yeah, absolutely. It's the momentum of organizations. You know, I'll say that, you know, I've been preaching this architecture for budgets for a really long time. And, you know, I'd say half of my clients kind of rejected it out of hand because it just would be too hard to get it done in their organizations. You know, it's not the way people feel empowered as marketing leaders, and it makes it difficult. And sometimes finance doesn't really know how to implement it that way, either, because what you're essentially doing is funding an initiative instead of funding a discipline, and it makes it just—it's upside down a little bit for the way marketing and finance interact with each other. So we have had clients. We have had many clients that have adopted it. It's usually a transition. So they go from maybe phase one is to pull some of the money out of the discipline budgets and put it into the campaigns, and then, you know, phase two is to put more of it over there and keep the disciplines on life support, but keep the budgets in the campaign so that the campaigns can go and really respond to buyer needs and the segments that they're serving.

Drew: Yeah, for those of you who are listening right now, I would love to put it in chat whether or not you are campaign-based or department-based, because I think that'd be a really interesting thing for us to see in the comments. And I'm glad you mentioned the phase approach, because I do. I think that's probably one of the questions that folks—well, how do I get there, and how do I unpack it? And even, how do I recruit if, if you say to the head of demand gen, you're part of the budget, you're not—you don't have a specific budget, it might be harder to recruit that person.

Craig: Depends on their perspective. But you know, I've got a good, strong campaign team, maybe the thing to do is to bring them in to run campaigns. Yeah, exactly. And you know, the people that we think the hot job in marketing is being the campaign leader. Now you call them VP, director, whatever, but the person that's in charge of the campaign is then saying, here's the buyers, here's the segments, here's the proportion of investment I need to make in reputation, demand, engagement, enablement, by segment, and then these are the kinds of programs that I want to execute over the long run. And you know, in B2B, the sales cycles are 9, 12, 15, 18 months. So campaigns are running that long as well. That's the idea, is that campaigns run for the foreseeable future, not a quarter. And so when you have this longer-term perspective, and you put somebody that really knows how to get things done inside your organization, understands marketing to direct the activities of the campaign, you get a different outcome.

Drew: It's funny, I wasn't prepared to advise everyone on this, on this call, and in listening to the podcast, that they need to revise their organization, but it feels like if you want to fix your budget problem, you probably have to fix your organization a little bit and reorient. What really strikes me here is, if you take the campaign approach, you're also creating the long-term approach. You're also setting up the business value of what marketing does, which I think is so important and so hard for folks to understand. And when you start to look at the budget and you say, oh, it's 80% demand gen or 50% field marketing and 20% brand. You're sort of looking as if those are separate things and that they don't work together. And we just know that's not true. All right, let's get to the second one. I mean, I think we kind of covered it, but we're not aligning marketing spend with business objectives. Is there something else we should cover there to do that right? What's that look like?

Craig: We have this notion of a plan on a page. You know? The idea is that it's relatively straightforward, easy to communicate, and it aligns, or it lists the primary business objectives, the ones that come from on high. You know, what's the company trying to achieve? Is it revenue? Maybe it's some sort of brand recognition, maybe it's position in a market segment. There's all kinds of different overall business objectives that the company is trying to achieve, and marketing needs to look at each of those objectives and figure out how it's going to support them. And so what you end up with, as you build out your plan on a page is, you know, a set of marketing plans that are aligned to different business challenges. And as you invest into each of those items in your marketing plan, you can begin to build the basis for understanding the return that you're getting on your investment. So being able to align to business objectives gives you the basis for the conversation to say, here is what marketing is doing to help the company achieve the objectives that it wants to achieve. So that way you get away from, look how many events we did, look how many attendees came to the event, look at, you know, the readership of this content, all those activity kinds of things. I mean, that's interesting, and it's certainly interesting if you're running the events and you're running them more efficiently, that's great, but it's not giving you the impact-level perspective on what marketing is doing to help the company. You know, that's the trouble that CMOs get into, is that, and especially in B2B, right? Is that product, sales, they tend to be sort of in a lead role, and marketing is kind of, you know, in a third role. And in order to be able to really sit at that strategy table with those other players, you've got to be able to demonstrate that you're not a cost center, that you're driving the business and you're helping the business achieve its objectives. And so the way you do it is start with making sure that everything you do is lined up to the core business objectives.

Drew: And what's interesting, I think a lot of marketers believe that by putting the dollars in demand gen, they're doing that right. And it's sort of ironic that, yes, you do want to create demand. Yes, we understand that. But in order to do that, we live in a multi-touch environment, and that's what a campaign is. And if you reorient it that way, you've just elevated the business. You've elevated the role of marketing.

Craig: But you know, if you look at the revenue picture for companies like, look, I'm just a startup, and they're just getting their first few products out, then it's all demand. It's all net new buyers. But if it's a company that's been around for a while, chances are your revenue is made up of 60, 70, 80, 90% revenue from existing customers. So it's retention, it's upsell, it's cross-sell, and the net new component is, you know, what the demand budget is good for. And if you orient yourself towards saying that marketing equals demand, then you're kind of missing the visibility into what your customer base looks like. Now, for some companies, it makes sense to have a really heavy demand-oriented budget, and I'll agree that it costs more to bring in a net new customer than just keep one. So, you know, for every maybe $5 you spend on demand to bring in one customer, you know, you spend $1 to keep one customer. So that's probably a true rate. I mean, you know, that's not a benchmark number that's being quoted by Forrester right now, but, you know, the point is that it's more expensive to go get the net new customers, and your marketing plans really ought to consider that. So when you build a campaign, you ought to be looking at the market segments and breaking them down. How much of these are existing customers? How much are net new? And then you invest in different proportions of reputation, demand, and engagement for each of those new versus existing customer segments.

Drew: Okay, so the third one was plans in sort of, you talked about product. Typically, it's based on a product. We're going to spend X amount of dollars to support this product, new product, as opposed to audience and life cycle. Talk a little bit more in detail on that one.

Craig: Well, you know, a lot of the work that I've done in the years at Sirius Decisions. And you know, as Forrester's client base is a little more diverse than the technology clients that we saw at Sirius, but you still have this orientation in B2B where the product is the thing that we want to go take to market. And in many cases, you've got audiences with varied needs. The different audiences might have different needs. They might articulate their needs a little differently, but they still need the same products. If I'm out talking about the feeds and speeds and capabilities and functionality of products, I'm sort of ignoring the fact that these customers have specific needs. They want those needs presented to them in their language. So being able to pivot from a product orientation to an audience orientation gives you a whole new perspective on how to work with your markets. You know, markets, the segmentation that we advocate is really just go look at the different market segments that you're trying to identify, figure out what portfolio of your products map to each of those different segments, and then focus on the buyer needs. And I'll add one other point is, I've seen this happen many times, is where marketers get really focused on almost imagining that they're steering the sale of the product by sort of these incremental steps and messaging that they're doing. And so this is like remote control selling the product. And in many cases, when you've got, you know, a direct sales force, marketing's job is to get the direct sales force to talk to the customer about their high-level needs, and then, over time, begin to break down, well, which of the products are the most appropriate for that particular customer, especially when you get into bigger enterprise-level sales. The opportunities are much more complex, and they buy a portfolio of products, not an individual one.

Drew: Okay, so in summary, on this first part of this thing, I think we're talking about a radical transformation of how they look at their organization in the sense that, right now, they orient their org chart at a functional level, as opposed to either a target level, right? Because if we did it on a, we said, okay, you're small business, or you are this type of customer, and we oriented that way, or we did it by campaign designed that way, you would have full alignment of spending and people. But right now, what you're saying, the biggest issue it feels like, is there's not an alignment between how money is spent and how the org is designed. So that's a really interesting and provocative thing for all the CMOs to be thinking about. Are you budgeting by org chart? Number two, are you budgeting by business objective? And number three, are you budgeting by audience, product versus audience?

Craig: Yeah.

Drew: You know what's tricky there, and I want to just sort of wrap up on that. One is, you've got a head of product marketing. They've got, they're excited about a new product. They want to know, hey, well, how much are you spending on my product? And so the challenge then becomes, how does a product campaign become a campaign campaign, right? Because this is the product that we're going to do to help get us more traction in a particular audience, right? That's how we're going to make this pivot.

Craig: Well, think about a handful of campaigns, and maybe each of them have a slightly different portfolio of products that they represent. If you're the product owner in one of the P&Ls, you now, instead of looking for your product campaign, you're looking at the segment, the audience-oriented campaigns, and seeing where your products are featured. And in one, you know, maybe a product launch is a really big deal because it's an important capability for that particular segment. In another, it might be a relatively minor milestone.

Drew: Right? And you really need to be able to distinguish between those two. Is this, is it, hey, this is a nice thing to talk about with existing clients because there's an upsell opportunity, or this is really going to open up the door to get us at net new customers. We've sort of outlined some really big picture things. When you look at 2026 and you've been doing this a while, are we doing anything different than we would have done in 2025?

Craig: Well, yeah, I think one thing is that, and this is what a lot of our budget planning research this year was about. It's just looking at the volatility of the world and trying to think about how that can impact you as marketing leaders. In fact, I just made some notes on this, so let me make sure I get this right. Yeah. So we've got, you know, economic volatility, we've got geopolitical volatility, you've got supply chain volatility, and we've got legal volatility. Corruption. Contracts are changing because, you know, terms that people are willing to sign up for in relationships might be changing because people don't know what to expect. And so one of the big messages for planning your 2026 budgets is to really think about how volatility might affect you in the segments that you are in and the ones you might want to go in. And so we provided some advice that was essentially one's the opposite of the other. One is, you know, focus on some of the segments that you know are stable and you can grow in and be careful about the ones that you know might be affected by tariffs or they might be affected by some of these exclusionary practices that are happening and sort of retaliation for some of the things that are going on. There's all kinds of different reasons to think about there could be some supply chain problems where you might not be able to count on the supply chain that you need to be able to do the marketing and the selling that you want to, and that creates a lot of risk in those segments. So as you think about going into '26 and what you want to plan, I mean really volatility is the thing hanging over your head. And the reason we got to this was we did a bunch of surveys and data collection with CMOs and decision makers sort of towards the end of last year and the beginning of this year. And we asked them about their optimism about their budgets, and we got back these hugely optimistic, you know, results is, oh, yeah, my budget's going to increase by so much. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you know, I actually think that, you know, we collectively as analysts thought that, you know, this is a little more optimistic than what we're actually seeing, especially in the first few months of this year, as we looked at some of the things that were happening, the tariffs that are sort of on and off and on and off, and everybody's bouncing back and forth between, you know, is this going to affect my markets or not? And we felt like that optimism is, you know, while we appreciate it, and we kind of see marketers as generally optimistic people, they need to be a little careful about where they spend their money. You don't want to stick your neck out too far. And so that's, you know, that's why that one legal one kind of came to mind is the terms of, you know, two-year contracts might be harder to sign up for if you don't really know what's going to happen in 12 months. So those kinds of things really create a different planning environment.

Drew: Yeah, no, it's fascinating. It's so interesting because, and we'll talk about AI later, but I know that a lot of CMOs, when they look at their martech and even investments there, they're looking at one-year contracts, period, because they just know that there's so much disruption, and clearly that's happening on a broader scale. Yeah, this may be the era where, if you can offer shorter-term contracts, you are more likely to close. But I love this notion of stable and unstable, because it wouldn't be hard to look at, oh, we do business in blue states that are applying government spending. Well, that could be a problem right now. You can get ahead of that. And again, it's putting your business hat on, not your marketing hat, and just thinking about, and you're right, economics, supply chain, legal, all of those things are creating volatility. And unless you are in the, literally in the AI space, you're feeling that. So does that also mean that the CMOs need to be thinking about, so notoriously, if you happen to have a line item called brand that would be cut in the fourth quarter, that would be the easiest to cut. And so I'm just wondering, from a flexibility standpoint, given that, do CMOs need to be thinking about their budgets as sort of, if everything goes well, we're here, and if we're not, if it's not going as well because of the volatility, we're here and build flexibility into their budgets?

Craig: I don't think of brand as something you turn on or off, and I think above the different reputation being where brand sits, demand and customer engagement, brand is one that really kind of moves the slowest and takes the longest to redirect that ship. So I don't think that's really an easy turn-on, turn-off kind of thing, bigger ship initiatives and things like that. But I think what we do in our planning, this plan on a page I mentioned, one of the outputs of one of the phases of the plan on a page process is to build a "will do, will not do" list. And I mean, as I used to call it, an "is, is not" list when I was a product manager, and we would have a kind of prioritized view of it, and we would draw a cut line. And if you need to adjust your budget, somebody comes along—CFO or circumstances change—you need to move things around, or salespeople. Eureka, if we, you know, we need to do this, we need to go to this, we need some promotion around here. You can then go to the "is, is not" list, or that "will do, will not do" list, and go to the bottom where your cut line is and say, "Well, which of these things do we move below the line so that we can move something else above the line?" And then that gives you this prioritized notion of projects, so you're not hammering on fundamental marketing activities like how much demand do I do, or how much reputation do I do? But maybe I've got projects that are defined that I can, you know, move into some sort of prioritization. So part of the plan on a page process is literally a prioritization phase where you take all the things that are directly aligned to the business objectives, plus some of the other things that you need to invest in, like marketing enablement, teaching your own people how to do things. Maybe you want to do some research on personas and be able to understand what the characteristics are of the buying groups. I mean, those are research that don't produce revenue outputs, but it produces important information that you need to do better marketing down the road. So we think of looking at your stakeholders, usually executive team, sales, product, and then marketing itself, and then look at the time to impact or time to value for the different kinds of things you do. And as you get into these discussions about what do I need to move off the "will do" list onto the "will not do" list, you can assess them in terms of time to impact and who it's serving and the overall cost of the project that you might want to lift off. But it doesn't really do that much good to just thin out the butter on the bread. You know, we've heard that metaphor many times, and, you know, while sometimes you can cut back on things a few points or whatever, you don't necessarily want to use that as a strategy for managing your budgets.

Drew: So I want to go back to make sure that I'm getting this. If we are, in a sense, allocating dollars by campaign, is that 100% of the dollars? Because I'm trying to figure out where does this, where does enablement and the research, and where does that fit into the budget structure?

Craig: So we think of campaigns—I think our budget architecture. So we have this model called the Strategic Allocation Model, and we move personnel headcount off to the side because we don't view that as a highly volatile number. It's something that can change over time, but it's a fixed asset, almost. You look at the program side of things, and within programs, we generally look for a 70/30 split between what's in campaign and what's out of campaign. And there are things that are out of campaign. They might be shared services. You know, it could be that your PR and your AR functions and things like that are funded out of there, and their program spend comes from that. You certainly would put your discretionary spend in there. Companies sometimes, like they have a big major event—the major event might be important to all of the campaigns you're running, so sometimes they'll call out yet another campaign, but sometimes they'll just stick it over in out-of-campaign and not try to chase the ROI on a big event like that. It's practically pretty hard to do, so the idea is to try to make life a little easier for you as CMOs and to give you the ability to detect and measure and document the ROI on the initiatives that you are running so that you can go have that conversation with your peers and executives about how marketing is contributing to the business. I mean, it's still the recurring theme, and what we do here is to try to give you the opportunity to be more strategic as, you know, the players in the leadership team for the organization and not get pushed into being perceived as a cost center. So the idea is to make sure that you can be a strategic player in the organization.

Drew: I'm just—as you talked about programs versus headcount—and parking headcount, in our first budgeting conversation this month, there was a pretty big range. If we say people, programs, and tech, and we break those out in terms of how much went into people versus—I mean, some were 60%, 70% people, some were only 40% people—it's a pretty big range in terms of that overall budget when you include programs and tech. Do you have a rule of thumb there?

Craig: You know, the numbers have changed over time, and the way we collect the data has changed over time. So in 2012, I wrote the first True Cost of Marketing report for SiriusDecisions, and I wrote it every two years through 2020, and then we had a little gap in time. And then we started collecting data a different way, and we started getting slightly different results. But, you know, for a long period of time, we looked at the balance of programs and personnel, and then we had what we called outsource services and tools and systems. And we were looking at, you know, maybe 40/40, and then, you know, 20 for the other categories. It could be 45/45/10, kind of, depending on the size of the company. We'd see that, you know, technology—you get a little bit more value out of technology as companies get larger and so forth. But 45—I mean, these are rough numbers, right? As you look at the different size organizations and so forth, then you're going to see some variations. One of the things that's changed lately, and I can't prove it—but I think this is happening—is that, and it's not that I can't prove it, I just haven't proven it yet, is that I think sometimes we look at technology today. There's a lot of pay-as-you-use technology that's out there. And look at intent, right? You can invest more and more and more in intent, you know, marketing, you know, like 6sense and things like that. And the more you spend, you know, you could account for that as a tech spend, but in effect, it's really a program spend. And so what we're asking people to think about is what's the baseline technology cost for having the capability or the ability to run an application like that, and then what are you spending on programs? So some of the data that we collect tends to show pretty high tech spend, but that's probably because the people that are responding are including what we would assess as program spend in their tech spend. So I mean, I'm giving you a little bit of why the data is a bit confusing these days.

Drew: No, I get it. So what you're really talking about is, so I'm in—say I use 6sense, and then I'm spending a lot on programmatic advertising against that intent. Suddenly that is a tech cost when it's really a program. It's just to clarify where you put buckets.

Craig: Where you put buckets.

Drew: So it's a hard rule of thumb, but I would think, and this may be a way of getting—I think there's a lot of pressure right now on CMOs to get that people cost down under the guise that, yeah, we should be able to do more because of AI. And I'm just wondering if that's starting to show up in your data and you're seeing that happening.

Craig: Well, AI is a big change agent in marketing, and certainly it's going to affect a lot of things. My goal, my perspective, is that we want to help people use AI more effectively. It may not—I mean, it's going to cost some jobs, not necessarily, although, you know, people are getting replaced in different roles. But I think that more than anything, AI is going to start doing things that are repetitive and, you know, very data-intensive, but it's going to give the people that are doing those things today the opportunity to do something else and be more strategic in their role. So I'm a big believer in trying to shift some of the responsibilities of marketing to help marketers become more strategic. But that means that marketing has to invest in helping people understand how to use these tools in an effective way. And it's not that easy, right? Today, you look at, you know, what AI is. I may have listened to one of your podcasts from a couple of weeks or maybe a month or so ago, and you're talking about agentic, and nobody really knows what the definition of agentic AI is. And, you know, that's because it's kind of made up and defined by people that are selling products, as well as, you know, people that are using it, and they don't all have the same set of definitions. So if you're trying to figure out where AI fits in the organization, I think it's a real confusing mess today as to where it might fit in and how it can be used and how it can be applied to optimize your organization. So I've been doing some work on thinking about how a CMO can address this, because they're getting a lot of pressure to use AI. People—what you just said is, "Hey, AI ought to reduce costs, so go use AI." And so what I'm beginning to come around to is that we ought to be evaluating the big processes that cut across marketing and breaking them down into the parts of which they are comprised, and then look at AI and don't assume AI is just generative AI, because it's not, right? You've got predictive, prescriptive, you've got all kinds of tools that are AI-enabled today that you've probably already got in your tech stack. So it doesn't mean you have to run out and buy brand-new generative AI tools to use AI today, but you can look at the steps in all the different processes and then think about some criteria for which version or type of AI is the most appropriate for the problems you're trying to solve. And so it's just, you know, I think one of the classic thoughts is that if you've got a really big problem in front of you, you need to break it down into smaller problems so that you begin to solve it. And I think the same thing is true with where do I use AI. I mean, certainly you can find a few use cases, and there are vendors out there that will say, "Look how you can, you know, write this content," or "Look how you can do this other thing." But I think from a CMO's point of view, you need to kind of back out and look at, "Well, what is my organization doing from a kind of product management or product marketing processes do I have? What kind of campaign planning and implementation processes do I have? What sort of marketing planning and budgeting processes do I have?" And, you know, there are others. How do I break those down to figure out where different forms of AI can work? And, you know, you might find that prescriptive AI, maybe with a little agentic capability so that it sees what ought to change and then it can actually implement the changes—I mean, those kinds of things can work today. You just have to understand the scope of where it can fit in. So to just sort of answer your question, I think AI is going to really transform organizations. I don't know if I really believe it's going to reduce cost because, I mean, I've been working out of college for a really long time, and every time a new innovation comes along, it's not like my life got easier. More stuff gets done, right? You know, I'm still working as hard as I ever did. So I think that we still have jobs as marketers. I think that we just have to figure out how to use this new family of tools to make our organizations more effective.

Drew: That's a wrap on this Huddle's Quick Take. Catch the rest of this bonus huddle with Forrester's Craig Moore on the CMO Huddles hub on YouTube. I'm Drew Neisser, and we'll be back soon with another Huddle's Quick Take. Until then, keep on sharing, caring, and daring each other to flocking awesomeness.

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that's me! This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and Ishar Cuevas. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro Voice Over is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, or learn more about B2B branding, CMO Huddles, or my CMO coaching service, check out renegade.com. I'm your host, Drew Neisser. And until next time, keep those Renegade thinking caps on and strong!